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#1952 - 05/13/08 08:34 PM
Flight height chat discussion log (long)
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Cerberus
addict
Registered: 11/28/07
Posts: 608
Loc: Arlee, MT, USA
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[chat : Harold] Flight doesn't take in to account how encumbered one is. Should it?
[chat : Tirin] As is, strength determines how high you can fly.
[chat] Tirin finds that... a bit silly.
[chat : Harold] You would rather see...
[chat : Tirin] Something arbitrary for each race, based on what looks like it would fit them.
[chat : Tirin] It works for birds.
[chat : Tirin] of the two highest fliers, one is very small and would have low low strength in Darke terms. The other is one of the biggest, and strongest
[chat : Harold] So gliding versus flying?
[chat : Harold] Which are the highest flying birds?
[chat] Tirin isn't sure there really is a difference. But.. Wing span to body ratio etc etc.
[chat : Tirin] There is a LOT more to lift on a Sword-demon.
[chat : Harold] Okay, so back to encumbrance
[chat : Tirin] 
[chat : Harold] Unless you've got something other than gut you're talking about
[chat : Harold] None of the highest flying birds I'm looking at appear particularly weak or small.
[chat : Tirin] relative each other?
[chat : Harold] Bar headed geese hold the record as far as I can tell - no one would call a goose small or weak.
[chat : Harold] yes, relative to each other
[chat : Tirin] Compared to a condor, who according to Darke logic would fly a LOT higher.
[chat : Harold] I got nothing against changing how systems work, especially when they're as simple as the system we've got for flight is
[chat : Harold] Incidentally, anything that requires race-by-race settings is likely to be shot down by me. Systems should handle everything, not individual instances
[chat : Harold] I could see endurance helping with high flight
[chat : Tirin] Hmm. That is an interesting approach. So, the difference in wing body and bone structure of Sword-demon, sprite and gromek shouldn't affect flight?
[chat : Harold] No, they're all designed for optimal flight for their race
[chat : Harold] So sword-demon has heavier bones and compensates with higher strength
[chat : Tirin] Lower strength actually.
[chat : Harold] +30 is low?
[chat : Tirin] Since it has a body at least eight times the mass but not eight times the strength
[chat : Tirin] yes.
[chat : Harold] What race has more than +30, and by how much?
[chat : Tirin] Hum. Size large VS size Tiny. I have 65 strength. Not many sword-demons have 400+
[chat : Harold] As far as I recall, and I just set these, so I'm sure of it, the mass of a corpse is 200 * size
[chat : Harold] Which makes a sword-demon corpse 4x the weight of a sprite
[chat : Tirin] Okay. I went by HP, and large is 8x the HP.
[chat : Tirin] Ok. How many sword-demons have 260 str?
[chat : Harold] So Sprite's -25 is actually 55 points of strength from sword-demon's +30
[chat : Harold] So the average sword-demon has 80 strength and the average sprite has 25
[chat : Tirin] Assuming spending no points, sprite ends 25, and SD 80. So, Sprite is stronger.
[chat : Harold] Which is hauntingly close to 4x
[chat : Shana] Close to 3x you mean
[chat : Shana] Far far closer to 3x
[chat : Harold] What I'm saying is you're not making a strong argument at all
[chat : Harold] Creation points skew it because of rising costs. Have to use 0 sum
[chat : Shana] I think Tirin is making a strong argument that a sprite is tronger relative to its body size than a sword-demon...which would matter for flying
[chat : Harold] Relative to size matters none, we don't make "relative" stats. Stats are all on the same level
[chat : Harold] A sprite with 400 strength has the same strength as a sword-demon with 400 strength
[chat : Tirin] Yes.
[chat : Tirin] And much less body to carry around as you just said.
[chat : Shana] It matters for flying, because a player's strength has to lift its mass. it doesn't matter where raw strength is required
[chat : Harold] Which is actually encumbrance and not mass
[chat : Harold] Since all bodies would be optimized for individual race's flight
[chat : Shana] It's mass. Encumberence adds to mass
[chat : Harold] That's how I got to encumbrance
[chat : Harold] Encumbrance is the measure of your maximum carrying capacity. Of course it adds to mass, but it tests against how much mass you can carry
[chat : Harold] So a sword-demon's body structure is made for its flight style like a sprite is made for its flight style
[chat] Shana is not seeing your point. To fly, one's wings must lift both one's body AND what one is carrying
[chat : Harold] And each body is set to carry itself if it flies
[chat : Tirin] Since strength is absolute, the bigger the body, the more strength needed.
[chat : Harold] So having less mass doesn't matter - sword-demons have big leathery wings to carry more mass. Sprites have small gossamer wings to carry less mass. The only difference is the encumbrance
[chat : Harold] Not at all. Body is optimized for style of flight
[chat : Shana] Yes, but not necessarily equally well. A sword-demon may be able to fly, but possibly not at all high since it can't push its mass up very far
[chat : Tirin] OK, so flight height should be something like strength - body weight.
[chat : Harold] Str - encumbrance %. Again, body weight has nothing to do with it since the flight style is optimized against body weight
[chat : Shana] Yes, but not necessarily equally well. A sword-demon may be able to fly, but possibly not at all high since it can't push its mass up very far
[chat : Harold] You're discounting the flight style there in favor of mass. I'm telling you mass is discounted in favor of flight style
[chat : Tirin] Sworddemons are the bumblebees of Darke. They shouldn't be able to fly but still do it
[chat : Harold] Notice we don't have "classes" of maneuver in flight
[chat : Shana] How do you mean "flight style"? If your wings don't have the power to lift you very high, what style do you employ to get high?
[chat : Harold] I don't foresee adding maneuverability, and that's what I mean by flight style
[chat : Harold] If you can fly, you can fly equally well period.
[chat : Shana] I was talking about lift...how high you can go
[chat : Shana] Not maneuverability
[chat : Harold] And I'm saying that all races are optimized for lift alone.
[chat : Tirin] In that case, everybody can fly equally high, period?
[chat : Harold] Since there's no maneuverability
[chat : Harold] As strength modified by encumbrance suggests, yes
[chat : Tirin] In conclusion: Arbitrarily ignoring body mass
[chat : Harold] Because there's no maneuverability to balance against, not arbitrary at all
[chat : Tirin] Well, if sworddemons are optimised for lift, their description should mention they are 80% wings or so. Heh.
[chat : Harold] If we have maneuverability, I agree with your assessment - sword-demons have leathery wings unlikely to provide maneuverability, but fine for lift
[chat : Harold] Thanks guys. Good discussion, even if you did rely on nothing but conviction to hold up your end 
[chat : Tirin] And that wingspan doesn increas linearly with the mass it has to carruy )
[chat] Shana smiles. I don't think your stance was particularly logical. You relied on "I'm the admin, so I decide"
[chat : Tirin] For example, making a sprite 8 times as big and 8 times as strong would render it unable to fly.
[chat : Harold] Actually, I relied on the highest flying birds in the real world, the lack of alternatives to scale against...
[chat : Harold] What's giving you the idea that there's a linear progression between races and size/
[chat : Shana] No, you simply said none of the highest fliers were very small. You completely ignored that flying high doesn't correlate well with size, waving it away with some random, unfounded behaviourial theory on why condors don't fly as high as geese
[chat : Harold] Did I? Let's rehash that.
[chat : Shana] Sure.
[chat : Harold] So what's the argument for high flight in small, weak creatures?
[chat : Tirin] Oh, that is another thing. What is the argument for flight in big strong?
[chat : Shana] Not high flight in small weak creatures. That lift doesn't directly correlate with strength
[chat : Harold] Flight is done via wing flapping
[chat : Harold] So lift is accomplished via strength
[chat : Tirin] Wing flapping. And wing span. And the bigger the mass, the bigger the wing span and strength needed.
[chat : Harold] Wait, one step at a time
[chat : Harold] Wing span and body mass have to be in proportion for flight, we agree
[chat : Harold] So sprites with small body mass can have small wingspan, whereas sword-demons with large body mass must have large wingspan, yes?
[chat : Tirin] And bigger body mass requires exponentially, not linearly, bigger wings, and strength.
[chat : Tirin] yes.
[chat : Harold] Why is it exponential instead of linear?
[chat : Harold] What's that founded on?
[chat : Tirin] Say the sworddemon is 5 times bigger. it would then need say 10 times the wing span, and thus more strength
[chat : Harold] Real world, right?
[chat : Tirin] Right.
[chat : Shana] Because mass goes up as the cube of size
[chat : Shana] Due to three dimensional world
[chat : Tirin] So, we go to Shana's "Arbitrary admin" here I think?
[chat : Harold] So a sword-demon of size large and an ogre of size large will have the same body structure and distribution?
[chat : Tirin] similar. I see the body sizes as having a bit of variation.
[chat : Tirin] High-man != gray-elf...
[chat : Harold] That's exactly the point I'm making
[chat : Harold] So a size large sword-demon has much less physical mass, and is the same relative "size"
[chat : Harold] Can we agree on that?
[chat : Shana] Does it have much less hp then?
[chat : Harold] Hp from size is not based on mass - we don't have a density variable.
[chat : Shana] I think the fact that they have similar hp implies similar mass.
[chat : Harold] I won't disagree with you there. You'll need imagination in our imperfect code world. I apologize for that
[chat : Tirin] the %age of SD mass that would need to be bigger than the %age for sprite, and would require a larger %age of it's strength to be used, for the same lift power.
[chat : Harold] You lost me, too many steps at once. Small words, baby steps.
[chat] Tirin forgot a wings in there
[chat : Shana] Well, on the one hand you claim we can't really argue our positions. On the other hand, when it is clear we can, you imply we have no imagination
[chat : Tirin] the %age of SD mass that would need to be wings would be bigger than the %age for sprite, and would require a larger %age of it's strength to be used, for the same lift power.
[chat : Harold] That's hardly true. You disagreed with something I think is very clear - if one creature can fly and another can't though they're the same size they HAVE to have different densities
[chat : Shana] OR they are *not* optimized for flying
[chat : Tirin] I see size as height more than anything. An ogre and a sword-demon, minus the wings are similar. SD just has extra wings, and extra mass.
[chat : Harold] How does that figure?
[chat : Tirin] Cut off the wings, they are similar.
[chat : Harold] I disagree completely
[chat : Tirin] interesting.
[chat : Harold] A gray-elf and an orc are the same size, you'll claim they're similiar density?
[chat : Tirin] as I said... "I see size as height more than anything".
[chat : Tirin] height... Is not quite density.
[chat : Tirin] If it was density, Mountaindwarf and gray-elf should probably be the same size.
[chat : Harold] Okay, so your comment that sword-demon has wings so extra mass doesn't imply that it's mass is similar to an ogres. That's my misunderstanding.
[chat : Tirin] Wings don't matter when deciding the size for a race. Please don't mention the non-humanoids.
[chat : Harold] Okay, so size as height I can agree with
[chat : Shana] Also, from their description: "Leathery wings sit folded above;their shoulders, allowing limited flight." it doesn't sound at all like they are "optimized for flight"
[chat : Tirin] because.. their wing span with regards to size and strength maybe...?
[chat : Harold] I agree, the description doesn't suit flight. I can't code maneuverability, and we don't have it.
[chat : Tirin] So go with what you have. Lift. SD can get 1 or 2 up at best. Limited.. flight
[chat : Harold] Okay, I can buy that
[chat : Harold] So strength bonus innate to race versus racial size
[chat : Harold] Modified by encumbrance
[chat : Tirin] Then of coure you would either be at 1) making mass affect flight or 2) code differently based on race..
[chat] Tirin nods.
[chat] Tirin could see that.
[chat] Shana nods.
[chat : Harold] I can stomach things innate to all races - strength mod vs body size is fine by me. Enlarged fliers would not be able to go up makes sense by the logic I'm agreeing with
[chat] Tirin nods.
[chat : Harold] So ratios are all we're talking at this point
[chat] Tirin basically..
[chat : Harold] So let's talk turkey. abs((str bonus / 10) / size)?
[chat] Tirin thinks.
[chat : Harold] Let's look at races
[chat : Shana] What does that value refer to? How many high it can go?
[chat : Harold] Sword-demon that winds up being 0 (we'll minimum 1 up for all races
[chat : Harold] I'd guess so
[chat : Harold] Seems to restrict too many races to the minimum
[chat : Shana] How would a negative bonus be treated? 1, 2, 3 for sizes I don't think really conveys the impact of mass
[chat : Tirin] (str bonus / 10) would that produce a value higher than... 1.4 or so for any race?
[chat : Harold] abs = absolute_value
[chat : Harold] nod. It's too low
[chat : Tirin] or is str bonus not the same as the + you get to skills?
[chat : Shana] Yes...so a -25 is the same as a 25?
[chat : Harold] yes
[chat : Harold] Sorry
[chat : Harold] So numbers. What's looking good?
[chat] Tirin is thinking..!
[chat] Shana too.
[chat : Harold] Racial strength bonus means that spellups won't change it - is that okay? I don't particularly like it
[chat : Harold] Making spells have no effect on things is a long step to take. Maybe current stat bonus from strength?
[chat : Shana] Maybe go with strength? Since stats are not relative...a sprite with 90 strength is stronger than a sword-demon with 80
[chat] Tirin Thinks the strength spellups availible are a bit excessive..
[chat : Shana] And since sprites get a strength negative and sword-demons get a strength bonus, racial attributes are factored in
[chat : Harold] That sounds good to me. Current strength then
[chat : Harold] Since that's what is already in, it jives well too
[chat : Harold] We try not to go apeshit in changing the way things work here, just improve and modify notably not draconian
[chat : Harold] So current strength bonus and current size is what we know is factored in
[chat : Harold] I'm not sure there is a maximum height on the world map, but let's call it 5 in case there is
[chat : Tirin] int ((str / 10) / (size + 1))
[chat : Harold] So using the strength stat rather than the bonus?
[chat : Harold] Or strength bonus?
[chat : Tirin] Strength.
[chat : Tirin] Let me see if I thought right here
[chat : Harold] That seems excessively high
[chat] Tirin went by... a sprite with 200 strength can go max high.
[chat : Tirin] size + 1 to make the jump from tiny to small smaller....
[chat : Harold] That would be 10 up at 200 str on a size 1 creature?
[chat] Tirin nods. At strength 200.
[chat : Harold] Okay, let's go with a str 25 on a size 2 then
[chat : Harold] That's still 2 up, right?
[chat : Harold] And an 80 on a size 4 creature is 1 up
[chat : Tirin] Yes.
[chat : Harold] And a 60 on a size 3 creature is 2 up?
[chat : Tirin] Assuming rounding up.
[chat : Harold] And a 65 on a size 3 creature is 1 up?
[chat : Harold] We can't round up. Cut off decimals
[chat : Tirin] Ah ok. So round down and always able to go 1 up. Yes.
[chat : Tirin] Same effect.
[chat : Harold] So all fliers could go 1 up at minimum
[chat : Harold] I can hang with that. Modified by encumbrance, right?
[chat : Tirin] Yes. That too.
[chat : Tirin] str - enc/10?
[chat : Tirin] or /5?
[chat : Harold] I think % encumbrance is more appropriate
[chat : Tirin] Obviously.
[chat : Harold] So how about we just put the % right on to the max
[chat : Tirin] That works too. Probably.
[chat : Harold] Sounds kinda harsh at the lower amounts
[chat : Harold] 50% encumbrance means you'll be able to fly 1 up in most cases
[chat : Harold] But is that so horrible?
[chat : Tirin] Hmm.
[chat : Tirin] Maybe assume some free... You can be encumbered up to X%, and only count over that?
[chat : Harold] That works, so what %?
[chat] Tirin just says 25% or so, arbitrarily.
[chat : Shana] I don't think it is a problem that encumberance kilsl flight down to 1 in most cases.
[chat : Shana] There's rarely a reason to NEED high flight. If you do...you can't wear plate armour and things
[chat : Shana] It seems reasonable
[chat : Tirin] It isn't really a problem. And funnily, since SDs can carry more with lwoer %age encumberance, it hurts them less which makes sense
[chat : Harold] With a viable system that makes sense, I'm more likely to code shit that uses it
[chat : Tirin] That's the spirit!
[chat : Harold] For instance, I'd expect to code mob spawns in mid air. Because I like that sort of thing
[chat] Shana nods. But things that fly don't tend to carry things. I'd suggest that wearing armour and all should make flight quite quite hard.
[chat : Harold] So no threshold for encumbrance?
[chat] Tirin is persuaded by Shana. If you want to fly, be nekkid, or a paladin/cleric/war-priest
[chat : Harold] Or just have them spell you up, to be sure
[chat] Shana nods.
[chat : Harold] Except for war-priest. Damn that guild needs a retooling
[chat : Harold] Monk and thief need complete overhauls though
[chat : Tirin] You don't say....
[chat : Harold] All in good time. So let's get back to it. Encumbrance % is strict loss?
[chat] Tirin nods.
[chat : Shana] On the spur of the moment it seems okay
[chat : Harold] Okay. I can bite on that. Any point where flight should be a maximum of 0?
[chat : Harold] So you can "fly" but not go up
[chat : Shana] When encumberance is such that "Movement is quite difficult"
[chat : Harold] Because high encumbrance will make that happen with this system
[chat : Shana] Well, we had a minimum of 1 up though
[chat : Shana] I'm saying it should be 0 when that level of encumb is reached
[chat : Harold] Yes, base. I'm asking if encumbrance should stop you from going 1 up at any pint or not
[chat : Harold] Okay. Give me a few minutes and I'm going to write something out, see how it jives
[chat : Shana] I don't know what the specific threshold is, but at some level of encumb, you get a message saying "Due to your heavy load, movement is quite difficult" or something
[chat : Shana] That is where I'm saying flight should be 0 up
[chat : Harold] Pretty sure that's at over 100% encumbrance but I can check
[chat : Shana] You can move at over 100%?
[chat : Tirin] No. Can't move at 100 or over, at al.
[chat] Shana nods.
[chat : Tirin] Unless Divine transed.
[chat] Harold nods. Maybe I can for some spell reason
[chat : Shana] Or levitating, I think. Non-winged flight
[chat] Tirin realises why Harold never found that
[chat : Harold] Okay, so at the same point as the heavy burden you should have a max height of 0?
[chat] Shana nods.
[chat : Harold] (str / 10) / (size + 1)
[chat : Harold] Okay, so max_up = (((str / 10) / (size + 1)) * encumbrance%) then if(encumbrance% > dragassmax) max_up = 0; is what I'm looking at now
[chat : Harold] That seem on target with what we've discussed?
[chat : Tirin] I think so...?
[chat] Shana nods.
[chat : Harold] Variables should be pretty easy to decipher.
[chat] Tirin nods. "dragassmax" haha.
[chat : Harold] Checking into swimming right now
[chat : Harold] It is affected by encumbrance fine
[chat : Harold] Testing on test now
[chat : Tirin] Crashed yet?
[chat : Cerberus@DarkeMUDtest] Don't be foolish.
[chat : Tirin] Sorry. You are not Madoc. Or Spark.
[chat : Candanuca] I would go see Iron Man again.
[chat : Harold] See?
[chat : Candanuca] I wasn't doubting.
[chat : Harold] And I wasn't lying
[chat : Candanuca] Nope
[chat : Harold] Any factors we're not considering or should this go in tonight?
[chat : Tirin] Probably...
[chat : Tirin] But probably nothing lethal...
[chat : Cerberus@DarkeMUDtest] Okay, it looks good here
[chat : Lazarith] what are you putting in?
[chat : Tirin] yay
[chat : Cerberus@DarkeMUDtest] Changes to how winged flight maximum height is calculated
[chat : Cerberus@DarkeMUDtest] Will post news about it
[chat : Cerberus@DarkeMUDtest] Make sense?
[chat : Lazarith] surely does
[chat : Lazarith] that doesn't affect the winged flight spell just natural wings?
[chat : Cerberus@DarkeMUDtest] Looks like the winged flight spell does make you a magical flier, so no.
[chat : Cerberus@DarkeMUDtest] It probably shouldn't.
[chat : Cerberus@DarkeMUDtest] But it does
[chat : Lazarith] okay, just a coincidence that I can fly the exact same amount up as before the change then
[chat] Tirin wonders if azarith can read.
[chat : Cerberus@DarkeMUDtest] Probably not, no. Most rooms that were loaded into memory before the change won't be affected until reboot
[chat : Lazarith] ah
[chat : Lazarith] well, winged flight gives you wings
[chat : Tirin] AND all your flight is magical, and unaffected
[chat : Tirin] No it doesn't.
[chat : Tirin] It's just a spell message.
[chat : Cerberus@DarkeMUDtest] If you go to some remote place that isn't in memory already, it likely will change, and winged flight makes you fly magically, so won't be affected
[chat : Cerberus@DarkeMUDtest] It should probably make you sprout wings in actuality and fly normally, but it doesn't
[chat : Cerberus@DarkeMUDtest] It gives you the "float upwards" message, meaning it's magic
[chat : Lazarith] cool cool, messaging makes it sound as if you do actually sprout wings I've never bothered to body when I had it on
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#1953 - 05/13/08 08:39 PM
Re: Flight height chat discussion log (long)
[Re: Cerberus]
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Cerberus
addict
Registered: 11/28/07
Posts: 608
Loc: Arlee, MT, USA
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Here's my case:
1) Stats are not scaled to size.
2) Bodies are optimized for flight regardless of size.
A sprite with strength 30 will fly the same as a sword-demon with strength 30.
Adding size to the formula for maximum flight height works to scale strength to size, violating tenant one.
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#1959 - 05/14/08 06:09 AM
Re: Flight height chat discussion log (long)
[Re: Kim]
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carmy
member
Registered: 10/14/07
Posts: 164
Loc: South Korea
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I don't know why there are so many references to the "real world" anyway. Birds can fly because of reasons none of these other races have except for sylphs... In the real world, they'd all be too heavy to lift themselves even if they had gigantic wings. I think it's safe to say, if they have wings, they can fly equally well, since technically, none of them should be able to fly anyway. Why not give the races a wing size variable, and then use it in relation to their bodies. If they have big wings and small bodies, they can fly higher than things with big bodies and small wings. I think that's the only logical way of looking at it. I also feel as Harold said, encumbrance should factor in too. Someone carrying 500 stone, can't fly as high as someone carrying 0 stone.
If we look at the carry system, everyone starts at 0. You don't have any problems lifting or carrying yourself, so I don't see why that shouldn't apply to flying.
I think a wing size variable, compared to body size could be a base determinant of how high a specific race can fly, then use encumbrance to negate some height.
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