Originally Posted By: Shadowraith
Most of what I'm gathering is the ability of an AM to lock you up if you dont have a teleport of your own, not so much getting ganked, which any guild can do with proper preparation.
I think this is the crux of the argument, yes. The fact that another player can keep you from playing the game is the most relevant point, in my mind.
 Originally Posted By: Shadowraith
A second solution might be to only allow summon to work outside, or even only on the world map. Then it can still be used offensively, but not as terribly so as beign locked up, or even summoned to someones castles uber room of death.
This would be fine, except there are places on the world map that are fully inaccecessable at this point. This is not to say that an arch-mage of today would even be able to reach one of these places, but the same difficulties would apply if they were to somehow reach one of these inaccessable points. While the claim of a volcano summon is valid, it's still only death, not removal from the game. I find this to be the most 'middle-ground' option, but it leaves the real problem to be solved by a later group since it doesn't address the fact that moving a player aggressively has been and always will be a dangerous ability in terms of both fun and balance.
 Originally Posted By: Kim
"But, AM's are meant to be nasty due to their power. I do think perhaps being able to do this at level 12 might be a little low, but a high level AM should be nasty, as should most high levels."

That's one of the points. Even without summon, AMs are the nastiest guild. Summon simply takes them beyond being the worst guild, by far, to annoy, to being broken.
Arch-mages should be extremely dangerous at higher levels, and in fact they are. Summon isn't the tool that makes these magic users dangerous though. I neglected to quote Drey, but he lists a number of tools in the arch-mage arsenal that makes them a force to be recognized. Summon is not the usual combat spell, it's not on par with any other spell in the game, as far as I can tell. While other effects copy its major function, none copy its raw power to any degree.
 Originally Posted By: Shadowraith
So we nerf AM's then they complain about how easy NB's kill them (which they probably can do now) then the NB's get nerfed and they complain about how powerful fighters are, etc. Its a vicious cycle.

Back to summon, I still cant find history yet that it was meant to be benefitial only.

I do not like that it is level 12 with such hostile potential though. Still not sure of the right answer about it
Whether or not there is any record of how or why summon was reinstated, I am sure that portal was created as a replacement, and not a suppliment, to summon. If we're avoiding the nerfing of guilds, which is an admirable goal, we should be looking not at what their current use is, but their potential for abuse. Summon has a high potential for abuse, but is currently unabused, thus this conversation. Having established that, we now establish why the potential exists: because one can move another without consent. It is the consent issue that is key here, and not the moving of another individual, since we have a number of spells that do just that and are not currently under this microscope. Since it is the consent issue at hand, we should be exploring how it is appropriate to circumvent consent - for which there is already an answer: targets must have a token of some sort. I believe if we are to avoid nerfing OR removing the spell Summon, the idea we must focus on is the consent of individuals with regard to receiving a summoning token.
 Originally Posted By: Gabe
As i understand it, summon requires the presence of a token in the inventory of the summoned player. Unwilling reception of items has been an issue that's surfaced in darke a number of times, and there seems to be a simple solution. In a manner similar to one player allowing another player to follow, there could be a command implemented where one player would have to allow another player to give them items. Are you going to accept something from someone if you don't want it in your possession? Probably not. Simple syntax:

trade allow <name>

Toggles the ability of <name>d player to give items to the one entering the command.

Of course, the stealth-requiring act of slipping something small into another person's inventory could be, and probably should be, a guild ability, if it is determined that the ability to do so will serve a useful purpose within the game.
Shadowraith has kindly provided a tool for use here. We have the 'receive' command, which provides us with a solution that may please none, and should then stand as a viable option. If the receive command is toggled to disallow others from giving items to you, it stands to reason that this can be portrayed as an individual being very vigilant about their own inventory. Perhaps we see the common street urchin with their tattered rags clutched tightly to themselves as a prime example of one who would fail to notice an invisible mage slipping them a small item, but would at some point feel a difference in their inventory and immediately relieve themselves of unwanted items.

Here we get into allowing a player's stats to have some effect. For instance, if the receive toggle ignores invisible givers, as I feel it rightly should, it should also include clauses that allow for one who has receive turned off to check their memory and reactions stats, and rid themselves of whatever their memory stat says they have not intentionally picked up in a time determined by their reactions stat!

So for the paranoid who feels they must not ever have an arch-mage's summon token on them, memory becomes important as with an extraordinarily high memory stat any received item will be recognized as soon as it arrives. For the same overly vigilant individual reactions would be important because they could potentially rid themselves of incomming disaster AS it arrives, before they ever have possession of it (so even a masterfully timed linked, speedwalked alias could not effectively summon the individual).

Perhaps I am erring in outlining a system rather than arguing points further, but I believe this or another system that deals with the fact that both pro and con points are exceptionally valid, could be the answer in keeping the potential for a "nasty" AM as well as keeping the potential for a player "immune" to summon.

Note: There are also more ways to boost memory and reactions than there are to see invisible.
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