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#683 - 12/12/07 03:04 PM Re: Leather Improvement [Re: Llygoden]
Jedian Offline
newbie
***

Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 34
I am doing test on the effect of runes (new and old) on leather items. I will be using plasma protection rune as my base "new" rune and malsa sen zora rune as my base "old" rune. These are tests done on leather-gloves (Crafted at 40% Leathercrafting):

New Rune Test

On a blank leather-glove

Obasics's Protection for right hand by Damage Type
+---------------+---------------------------------------+
| Damage Type | Protection Level |
+---------------+---------------------------------------+
| unholy | very poor (12) |
| singing | none (1) |
| infernal | very poor (12) |
| strike | very poor (2) |
| stress | none (1) |
| aether | none (1) |
| holy | none (1) |
| disruption | none (1) |
| time | none (1) |
| cold | very poor (2) |
| vacuum | none (1) |
| plasma | very poor (2) |
| electricity | none (1) |
| impact | very poor (12) |
| fire | very poor (2) |
| impaling | very poor (12) |
| cutting | very poor (12) |
| crushing | very poor (12) |
+---------------+---------------------------------------+

On a leather-glove with malsa plasmar (Plasma Protection @ 150% skill)

+-------------------------------------------------------+
Obasics's Protection for left hand by Damage Type
+---------------+---------------------------------------+
| Damage Type | Protection Level |
+---------------+---------------------------------------+
| unholy | very poor (4) |
| singing | none (-7) |
| infernal | very poor (4) |
| strike | none (-6) |
| stress | none (-7) |
| aether | none (-7) |
| holy | none (-7) |
| disruption | none (-7) |
| time | none (-7) |
| cold | none (-6) |
| vacuum | none (-7) |
| plasma | low (74) |
| electricity | none (-7) |
| impact | very poor (4) |
| fire | none (-6) |
| impaling | very poor (4) |
| cutting | very poor (4) |
| crushing | very poor (4) |
+---------------+---------------------------------------+

Old Rune Test

On blank leather-glove

+-------------------------------------------------------+
Obasics's Protection for right hand by Damage Type
+---------------+---------------------------------------+
| Damage Type | Protection Level |
+---------------+---------------------------------------+
| unholy | very poor (12) |
| singing | none (1) |
| infernal | very poor (12) |
| strike | very poor (2) |
| stress | none (1) |
| aether | none (1) |
| holy | none (1) |
| disruption | none (1) |
| time | none (1) |
| cold | very poor (2) |
| vacuum | none (1) |
| plasma | very poor (2) |
| electricity | none (1) |
| impact | very poor (12) |
| fire | very poor (2) |
| impaling | very poor (12) |
| cutting | very poor (12) |
| crushing | very poor (12) |
+---------------+---------------------------------------+

On leather-glove with Malsa Sen Zora (Magical Protection @ 150% skill)

+-------------------------------------------------------+
Obasics's Protection for right hand by Damage Type
+---------------+---------------------------------------+
| Damage Type | Protection Level |
+---------------+---------------------------------------+
| unholy | low (55) |
| singing | poor (44) |
| infernal | low (55) |
| strike | very poor (2) |
| stress | none (1) |
| aether | poor (44) |
| holy | poor (44) |
| disruption | poor (44) |
| time | poor (44) |
| cold | very poor (2) |
| vacuum | poor (44) |
| plasma | poor (45) |
| electricity | poor (44) |
| impact | very poor (12) |
| fire | very poor (2) |
| impaling | very poor (12) |
| cutting | very poor (12) |
| crushing | very poor (12) |
+---------------+---------------------------------------+



Edited by Oba (12/12/07 03:08 PM)

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#687 - 12/12/07 05:32 PM Re: Leather Improvement [Re: Llygoden]
Dragora Offline
newbie
****

Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 38
Loc: Canada!
 Originally Posted By: Llygoden
The skinned leather should retain the level of the mob/player it came from as well as the race.


I do really like the idea of the leather keeping certain qualities of the corpse you skinned it with, but as Harold has stated this will require a whole re-do of the corpse system. This is a VERY good idea, but for this project (make leather actually used) this will not be done (for now...) as I believe what we have in place is good enough to get leather started and used for now, it just needs kick and some tweaking.

 Originally Posted By: Llygoden
there is a relatively low maximum "level" placed on the leather armor. Therefore, leather armor might be competitive with some mineral armor at lower levels, but leather armor would never be ideal for very high level players.


I also agree, my thoughts exactly

 Originally Posted By: Llygoden
The problem with leather craft currently is that it is never a useful product. I don't see a need to make leather armor something desirable to a high level player.


Again, right out of my mouth, I fully agree and this is what I am aiming for.


 Originally Posted By: Llygoden
* Instead of having a skin level, have a skin grade. Each grade would have a minimum leathercraft requirement. For example:
o Rough leather sheet -- min 0% LC
o Fine leather sheet -- min 25% LC
o Carefully cut leather sheet -- min 50% LC
o Masterfully cut leather sheet -- min 75% LC
o Perfectly cut leather sheet -- min 100% LC


Very good idea, would make it worth getting a higher % in skin corpse. I am contemplating this and I am really thinking about using this idea, I have seen it successful in many games. Only thing I am worried about is too many variation in the amour will be hard to make consistent decent amour. So it would be with this ((Skinned corpse level + Skin grade + leather craft skill + runes (if I decide to use these) + min fort + Maj fort = Overall AC)). It could definitely work, but I have to do some serious math to get it right (and I will take the time to do this math properly the first time). Also I want to make sure we do not get TOO many variations in one piece of leather to an other.




 Originally Posted By: Llygoden
* Instead of having different skins for each race, maybe make some general types:
o Scales from dragons/reptiles
o Fur from mammals
o Hides from humanoids
* And is sorta like the idea that leather armor could give a bonus to dodge, thanks to lighter weight/improved flexibility.


Again great idea for the future bit a little too far reaching for this project right now. But is a great idea.



 Originally Posted By: Llygoden
I've seen people say on chat that leathercraft's advantage should be its "quick to make" nature. I strongly disagree. If we were trying to recreate modern Chinese industry, then maybe, but as a leathercrafter I am dedicated to my craft -- I spend time on it; put effort into it to make something that will endure. I don't want to see leather armor go from mostly useless to a mass-produced, disposable piece of junk. Similarly, I don't like the idea of reduced speed runing/enchanting on leather


Not what I am trying to do. The thing we have to figure out is what will make leather more attractive than mineral amour at what point. If we make it too crappy, tinkers will not train it. I am not interested in making it as good as laen is, this will not happen. So we have to make it worth using this amour, figured quicker enchantment, maybe tweak up the dev cost and tinkers will train it at low levels to level on (instead of a low level rune) and overall will not be disappointed they trained it.

** Other good idea, if I decide to use runes just keep the skill as runes simply make it while your doing them instead of saying "inscribe" maybe say "branded"

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#688 - 12/12/07 05:44 PM Re: Leather Improvement [Re: Dragora]
mathias Offline
newbie
****

Registered: 10/19/07
Posts: 40
 Originally Posted By: Dragora
 Originally Posted By: Llygoden
The skinned leather should retain the level of the mob/player it came from as well as the race.


I do really like the idea of the leather keeping certain qualities of the corpse you skinned it with, but as Harold has stated this will require a whole re-do of the corpse system. This is a VERY good idea, but for this project (make leather actually used) this will not be done (for now...) as I believe what we have in place is good enough to get leather started and used for now, it just needs kick and some tweaking.

 Originally Posted By: Llygoden
there is a relatively low maximum "level" placed on the leather armor. Therefore, leather armor might be competitive with some mineral armor at lower levels, but leather armor would never be ideal for very high level players.


I also agree, my thoughts exactly

 Originally Posted By: Llygoden
The problem with leather craft currently is that it is never a useful product. I don't see a need to make leather armor something desirable to a high level player.


Again, right out of my mouth, I fully agree and this is what I am aiming for.


 Originally Posted By: Llygoden
* Instead of having a skin level, have a skin grade. Each grade would have a minimum leathercraft requirement. For example:
o Rough leather sheet -- min 0% LC
o Fine leather sheet -- min 25% LC
o Carefully cut leather sheet -- min 50% LC
o Masterfully cut leather sheet -- min 75% LC
o Perfectly cut leather sheet -- min 100% LC


Very good idea, would make it worth getting a higher % in skin corpse. I am contemplating this and I am really thinking about using this idea, I have seen it successful in many games. Only thing I am worried about is too many variation in the amour will be hard to make consistent decent amour. So it would be with this ((Skinned corpse level + Skin grade + leather craft skill + runes (if I decide to use these) + min fort + Maj fort = Overall AC)). It could definitely work, but I have to do some serious math to get it right (and I will take the time to do this math properly the first time). Also I want to make sure we do not get TOO many variations in one piece of leather to an other.




 Originally Posted By: Llygoden
* Instead of having different skins for each race, maybe make some general types:
o Scales from dragons/reptiles
o Fur from mammals
o Hides from humanoids
* And is sorta like the idea that leather armor could give a bonus to dodge, thanks to lighter weight/improved flexibility.


Again great idea for the future bit a little too far reaching for this project right now. But is a great idea.



 Originally Posted By: Llygoden
I've seen people say on chat that leathercraft's advantage should be its "quick to make" nature. I strongly disagree. If we were trying to recreate modern Chinese industry, then maybe, but as a leathercrafter I am dedicated to my craft -- I spend time on it; put effort into it to make something that will endure. I don't want to see leather armor go from mostly useless to a mass-produced, disposable piece of junk. Similarly, I don't like the idea of reduced speed runing/enchanting on leather


Not what I am trying to do. The thing we have to figure out is what will make leather more attractive than mineral amour at what point. If we make it too crappy, tinkers will not train it. I am not interested in making it as good as laen is, this will not happen. So we have to make it worth using this amour, figured quicker enchantment, maybe tweak up the dev cost and tinkers will train it at low levels to level on (instead of a low level rune) and overall will not be disappointed they trained it.

** Other good idea, if I decide to use runes just keep the skill as runes simply make it while your doing them instead of saying "inscribe" maybe say "branded"


Great ideas. It would be interesting to have all of those ideas implemented.

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#689 - 12/12/07 05:56 PM Re: Leather Improvement [Re: mathias]
Dragora Offline
newbie
****

Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 38
Loc: Canada!
 Originally Posted By: mathias
Great ideas. It would be interesting to have all of those ideas implemented.


They are great idea's its just a lot of work for now. I am not trying to jump into any huge projects. My plan is to take all the great stuff Darke already has codded that is old, taken out (crits) or not used at all and add some life to it. The new idea's can come once the stuff that is already in place is working better \:\)

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#690 - 12/12/07 06:18 PM Re: Leather Improvement [Re: Dragora]
Llygoden Offline
stranger
****

Registered: 11/01/07
Posts: 9
Well, what about not bothering with leather's AC for now but just adding a dodge bonus (preferably based on the leather crafter's skill)? The corpse/skin overhaul can come later.
_________________________
Llygoden, Organic Tinker

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#692 - 12/12/07 07:38 PM Re: Leather Improvement [Re: Llygoden]
Dragora Offline
newbie
****

Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 38
Loc: Canada!
My understanding of the leather problem was the AC it gave was absolutely useless, usually worse than runed Iron.
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#694 - 12/12/07 07:51 PM Re: Leather Improvement [Re: Dragora]
Llygoden Offline
stranger
****

Registered: 11/01/07
Posts: 9
Not so much that its AC is useless... it's that it doesn't improve at all with more skill %. If its AC were to increase with skill, there would be some reason to train it.
_________________________
Llygoden, Organic Tinker

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#699 - 12/13/07 12:52 AM Re: Leather Improvement [Re: Llygoden]
carmy Offline
member
****

Registered: 10/14/07
Posts: 164
Loc: South Korea
I think that making leather easier to produce would also perhaps increase the resources that newer players have. What a majority of people do to measure how much they're charging for a service is time (and quality of the service), but time is a main factor. A full set of laen armour takes a VERY long time to make if you want all runes and chants. If leather were much easier to get a hold of, it would be worth it.

I also don't think that this is going to create some sort of overabundance either. If there's an overabundance of anything, it's laen armour. As it stands, there's no variation to armour, and even the mineral changes that were implemented never really accomplished their goals of people using different minerals.

Perhaps with a look at leather AC, maybe some of the mineral types that were changed before could be looked at, to make them, not necessarily comparable to laen, but maybe good enough that a player may actually consider using something other than laen.

Going to add another idea here.

Some weapons have an option of being wood and metal, like a metal shod staff for instance. It would be neat if mineral and leather could be integrated together. Like, armour that could have leather parts and mineral parts. This could maybe add the variation that people are looking for all while adding some pizzazz(sp) to leather.

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#733 - 12/13/07 11:47 PM Re: Leather Improvement [Re: Llygoden]
Daniel Offline
stranger
****

Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 24
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the following idea, but perhaps thats because the majority of people would be afraid of the nerf.

I am also sure this idea isn't new.

Leatherworking would be more highly valued if certain classes could wear only leather or cloth.

As highlighted in other games, crazy strong metal armour gets worm by barbarians and warriors and paladins and such, while wizards and clerics run around in burlap and linen. It works in DnD and WoW.

I hope no one gets in a tizzy because I just said DnD and WoW. Naturally, we are not those games but many bright and creative folks sat around chewing the fat and thinking how they can make the game more interesting.
It comes as no surprise to me that they felt limiting classes to certain types of armour was adopted in so many different games.

Leatherworking would become a necessity!

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#744 - 12/14/07 06:23 AM Re: Leather Improvement [Re: Daniel]
sabu Offline
journeyman
****

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 88
Loc: wisconsin
The downside to limiting fighting type clsses wearing metal armour and the pure magic classes wearing leather or cloth is this. If you take DnD into example Only the fighter,tinker,cleric,paladin, war-priest, and chaos lord guild would be wearing metal. The Arch-mages, night blades, sword-mages and monks and thieves to leather armour.

I would be okay with that, but what i would like to see is concentrate used in a much broader sense. If you use the DnD thought there is a penalty for wearing armour for some of the magic using classes. If concentrate was used more to balance this out, so instaead of it only affecting casting in combat it would also affect casting spells anytime while wearing metal armour.

There was a thought of when the change happened that all LT skills will be stand still skillls . I think that is fine, but I would also like to maybe in corporate lets say once you get to 50% in a skill you can walk around doing the skill but for every tick you are doing that skill there would be a chance of it failing and the skill/spell stops working. Maybe put it at 50%. As you increased the skill the chance would lower. Also I would like to see concentrate incorporated into this too. Maybe for every 2% of skill you have in concentrate, 1% is knocked off the chance of failing the skill/spell when moving around.


Just a thought.

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